Saturday, December 19, 2009
Episode 25
In this 25th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan discuss the movie "Doomsday". Did they love it? Hate it? Listen and find out!
We also read a bit of fan mail, discuss the news and talk about what we've been up to.
Despite us ranting on about The Road not being shown in our area, I actually saw the movie after this episode was recorded. I'm sure we'll discuss it in more detail on the next episode, but it's a powerful movie!
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, November 27, 2009
Episode 24
In this 24th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan discuss the myths and facts behind the Chernobyl disaster. They also dive into the first person shooter game "S.T.A.L.K.E.R." and how well it depicts Chernobyl after a fictional second nuclear disaster there.
If you'd like to see some recent pictures of the disaster site, check out this link. It shows dozens of photos from a tour of the area, and how the surrounding towns are actually starting to rebuild, more than 20 years later.
Look for the next episode to be about the movie Doomsday.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, November 17, 2009
Episode 23
Hey folks, sorry for the delay between episodes, but you wanted epic intros, right?! Well you got one this time, that's for sure.
Episode 23 comes to you with special guests Brad and Heero from the Fallen Earth LifeNet podcast. We talk a whole lot about Fallen Earth, but also the post-apoc influences that got these two fine podcast hosts where they are today.
We also throw out a bit of news, and did I mention there's an epic intro? Yep. There is.
Next episode will be about the Chernobyl disaster.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Monday, October 26, 2009
Episode 22
In this 22nd episode of Through the Aftermath, the topic is The Postman. This covers both the 1985 novel by David Brin, and the 1997 movie starring Kevin Costner. Which one did we like better? What were our favorite parts of each? Why are these two works of media even named the same?!
We also read an email from Jason which points us towards Operation Able Archer, and how important it was to what could have been a full-scale nuclear war, in much the same style as the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Next episode will be with the guys from LifeNet, the Fallen Earth podcast.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, October 20, 2009
Episode 21
In this 21st episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan read a handful of emails from the listeners. If you still haven't had an email read on the show, sit tight as we have a handful left to get to.
Next episode will be about The Postman, both the movie and the book. We'll compare the two and let you know what you're missing if you've only seen the movie.
The TTA site and forums are down right now as the result of a hack, but they will hopefully be back faster than the last time the forums were down! These raiders are persistent, I tell ya.
Some links we mentioned:
Zombie Driver: http://news.filefront.com/
Rage: http://www.rage-game.com/home.
Lifenet Fallen Earth podcast: http://lagwar.com/fallenearth/
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, October 13, 2009
Welcome, wastelanders!
With all the problems I've had with webhosting over the years, I've decided to finally retire that fight. I'm transferring everything I can over to Blogger.com sites and Flickr accounts and services that aren't handled completely by me. This will be much easier on me, and hopefully with less downtime for you.
So I'm going through the process of manually restoring posts on this site, and hopefully, will have it all back to semi-normal soon.
Of course, this means a much more stream-lined version of the old site (including, yes, no more forums for now), but I just never got into podcasting to deal with webhost problems and hackers.
Sunday, September 27, 2009
Episode 20
In this episode, Shawn and Jonathan discuss George Romero's Night of the Living Dead (1968) and Tom Savini's directorial remake in 1990. They discuss the plot, favorite (and least favorite) parts, sequels, the upcoming CGI version and more.
If you've never seen any of these movies, you might want to check them out before listening to this episode. The original has fallen out of copyright, so it is free on several websites, such as Google Video.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Wednesday, September 16, 2009
Episode 19
Shawn has returned from Dragon*Con, and he comes bearing gifts! Gifts of story! Join Shawn and Jonathan as they discuss last weekend at the Atlanta, GA fan event and the cool post-apoc stuff Shawn saw. There were costumes, panels and even some drinks with the Fallen Earth devs.
They also read through some email, so it doesnât get too backed up, and mention the fact that the forums have been reborn! Rejoice!
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Wednesday, September 2, 2009
Episode 18
You know we've been waiting a long time for this episode, but the Fallen Earth post-NDA edition is finally here. Shawn and Jonathan talk about their favorite and least favorite parts of this upcoming post-apocalyptic MMO based on a rating system for each category. These include graphics, performance, social features, combat and much more.
While the open beta will be ending tomorrow (Tuesday, Sept 1st), the game is slated for launch on September 15th. Also remember, these impressions of the game are based on a pre-launch beta state.
If you've seen District 9, you may recognize Jonathan's epic 10-minute intro skit. If not, go see it!
Our next episode should be the post-DragonCon show, so look for that in about 2 weeks.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum(still broken!)
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, August 18, 2009
Episode 17
For this episode, Shawn and Jonathan read over a Top 50 Things to do in the Capital Wasteland article from Crispy Gamer. This Fallout 3 article includes such goodies as how to cosplay as Mad Max and how to kill yourself with a Rube Goldberg device. We read through the entire list, commenting on each and adding out own favorites at the end. Plus, in the news we have:
- Fallen Earth's open beta starts on August 17th
- RAGE is shown at QuakeCon
- Shawn still hasn't played Mothership Zeta! But the Fallout 3 DLC pack and Special Edition has been announced.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum (still broken!)
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, August 7, 2009
Episode 16
On this episode, Jonathan and Shawn are joined by Suzanne and Larissa from the Future Traditions podcast to talk all about Jericho.
The show is broken into a spoiler-free first half and then a no-holds-barred spoiler-filled second part where we talk all about the plot, including our favorite and least favorite parts.
We also discuss some news, including Fallen Earth's newly announced release date and Fallout 3's Mothership Zeta which released earlier this week.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum (which is still broken at the moment, but at least it's up! Hoping to get it fixed all the way soon)
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Thursday, July 23, 2009
Episode 15
In this 15th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan read through 20 new emails from the readers, solving problems, helping people, making friends. It's just what we do here.
- Chuck writes in to suggest Dies the Fire, as we discuss the fact that we need to actually get that book one day.
- Wes wants to know if we'll ever cover natural disasters as well as nuclear disasters
- Akin gives us some great advice on NOT burning zombies (link from David), plus the LiveJournal zombie community and a puppet show for kids!
- ADR writes in to recommend a few PA classics like Dr Bloodmoney
- Wolfenhex writes in to tell us about an unexpected PA racing game: Fuel
- Sulgicron IV wants to know what types of characters we play in Fallout 3
- Marc and Welshtroll give us a bit more info on Survivors
- David wants to know what got us started in the PA genre
- Rob makes some PA recommendations and asks our advice on some good older PA games for the PS2
- Nick tells us how he got hooked on the PA genre from his gf who bought him Fallout 3! How cool is that
- UndeadDog writes in to give us a great early PA poem written by Sara Teasdale in 1920
- Brother D from Mail Order Zombie checks in to let us know he's a big fan (We love you too, Brother D!)
- Ghostjeep recommends Trigger Effect
- Simon recommends an anime movie called Grave of the Fireflies, which he says is one of the saddest movies he's ever seen.
- D writes in to make some great suggestions for movies, the website and even some great Carl Sagan theories!
- An anonymous tipster lets us know about the upcoming Discovery Channel show called The Colony
- And finally, J.P. Moore writes in to tell us about his own podcast/audio book that focuses on the zombie apocalypse in the 12th century!
Next week's show will probably be our Jericho topic, so look for that in about 2 weeks!
- Fallout 3 Mod of the Show: A reinforced Chinese Stealth Suit! Yay!
- Video of the show: The Annoying Man won't shut up!
- This episode needs more Rush
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum!
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, July 10, 2009
Episode 14
In this 14th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan tackle yet another somber topic with the bombings of Japan's Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WWII. To help learn more about this subject, our listener Charles sent us along some great references for further reading:
- Hiroshima: Historians Reassesses by Gar Alperovitz
- Prompt & Utter Destruction: Truman and the Use of the Bombs Against Japan by J. Samuel Walker
- Hiroshima by John Hershey
Also be sure to check out the Wikipedia page that gives a general overview of what happened.
Next episode will be another email show, as we need to purge the steady stream of feedback from the listeners!
- Fallout 3 Mod of the Show: Turn your F3 weapons into classic Fallout weapons!
- Video of the show: BBC's documentary on dropping the bomb over Hiroshima
- Also... RUSH!
Sound bites were from Harry Truman's speeches during and after the bombing occurred.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our forum!
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, June 23, 2009
Episode 13
In this lucky 13th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan ponder the 1984 BBC docu-drama Threads. There's discussion on the movie's plot, our favorite shocking moment and even a few spoilers. If you'd like to watch the movie first, you can see it for free here.
But before our main topic, we discussed some news:
- Left 4 Dead 2 announced at E3
- Fallout 3's Point Lookout releasing tomorrow! Also some news on the following DLC
- Massively's Fallen Earth video demo at E3
Also, a collection of the things we forgot to mention on the show :)
- Fallout 3 Mod of the Show: That Enclave Commander mod Shawn talks about every other show
- Video of the show: Fallout 3 biggest explosions ever! Wooo!
- Obligatory Rush song
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our brand new forum!
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Wednesday, June 10, 2009
Episode 12
This is our second email show, as we plan to do these at least once a month from here on out. Some of the topics that we actually remembered to include in the show notes this week include:
- Scott offers an alternative to the Games For Windows store: Zune! https://live.zune.net/en-US/
- Brian offers up some great PA book recommendations, as well as an idea for a game he and his friends played years ago.
- Bill in Hawaii has compiled a comprehensive list of PA radio dramas on his site, and also suggests we check out Broken Sea Audio Productions, which he says is his favorite.
- Jeremiah talks about his idea for an 'Apocalypse of the week', which he has added to our forums.
- Apocalypse Dan has been pimping our show to the Fallen Earth forums, and we appreciate it!
- Erik has a PA-themed game pitch
- David wants to to stop omgthankyou-ing so darn much!
- Adam thanks us for pimping his artwork and has a few suggestions of his own, including a Polish RPG named Neuroshima and an online radio station that plays Fallout-3-style music.
- A second David writes in to tell us that he found us through our promo on The Signal podcast, and make a few suggestions on PA media.
- Tpajeek makes a brilliant suggestion for Rush as the official band of the TTA podcast. I'm all for that!
- Michael wants a list of our favorite Fallout 3 mods.
- Atomic Zen is now very interested in Fallen Earth, thanks to our interview a few shows back. Also, he suggests we take a look at a game trailer bringing us back through Fallouts past.
As mentioned on the show, we may start doing a "Video of the Show" and a "Mod of the Show" segment on each episode.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our brand new forum!
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Tuesday, May 26, 2009
Episode 11
In this 11th episode, we're joined by Jonathan's good friend Rob for a special show where we take a break from the serious interviews and somber PA movie reviews to have some silly fun. Ever wonder what you would do if you were stuck in a petting zoo when the Zombie Apocalypse hits? We're about to teach you... the wrong way.
Also, we hit on a bit of news:
- The trailer for The Road
- Fallout 3 isn't done with the DLC just yet
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our brand new forum!
Theme music is 'The Fourth Tribe' by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, May 8, 2009
Episode 10
In this 10th episode of Through the Aftermath, we're joined by Bethesda's Vice President of PR, Pete Hines, for a great discussion on Fallout 3 and Broken Steel. Swaying from the usual boring journalist questions, we try to mix it up a bit by asking some behind-the-scenes goodies. Plus, we discuss a bit of news from the last 2 weeks:
- The Road film gets a release date
- JJ Abrams to direct the Dark Tower movie
- Behind the Scenes with NBC's Day One series
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email, Twitter or our brand new forum!
Theme music is 'The Fourth Tribe' by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Monday, April 27, 2009
Episode 9
In this 9th episode of Through the Aftermath, we're joined by Chris Davis, owner of RPGObjects.com to talk about the post-apocalyptic tabletop gaming scene. Chris tells us all about his own tabletop RPG Darwin's World, as well as his personal top 10 PA tabletop RPG list.
For the news, we have a lot this week:
- Bethesda secures movie/TV rights for Fallout
- New Fallout New Vegas game announced
- Left 4 Dead DLC released
- Broken Steel preview and details
Plus, we have a forum finally! Yay! You can check it out at http://throughtheaftermath.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Episode 8
In this exciting episode, we are joined by Colin Dwan, Project Manager for Fallen Earth. Following an interview at GDC last month for Massively, Colin agreed to come on this show and talk a bit more about the game for the TTA listeners. Some topics we covered include:
- How Colin got started in the industry and what has influenced him
- How he feels about creating an MMO with a team of fresh faces in the industry
- A greater explanation of the game's 6 factions
- Why the game is rated Mature
And much more!
We'll be back to our normal schedule next week with another special interview all about PA tabletop RPG gaming.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Theme music is 'The Fourth Tribe' by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, April 10, 2009
Episode 7
In this 7th episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan skip the usual format to catch up on some some emails from the listeners. We chose 20 to read this time, and they vary from book/movie suggestions to a particularly interesting email regarding a certain post-apoc game that was never made - starring Metallica?!?
We briefly touch on the news of Masthead Studios (makers of Earthrise) helping out on the new Project V13 Fallout MMO.
Throughout the show we mentioned certain links we'd provide, so here they are!
- The Now Reading Wordpress plugin from Bill at Megat0n.com (formerly Doomorama.com)
- S.M. Stirling's wikipedia page as well as one of his books Conquistador, recommended by Jeff.
- Also recommended by Jeff: paperbackswap.com
- Michael Zenke writes in to recommend the Tripods by Samuel Youd
- Dr. Nik recommends PAMedia.com, where he first heard of us. Thanks to the folk over there!
- Paul recommends the Horseclans paperback novels
- Check out the illustrations of Adam Szary
- Andy is blown away by Waterworld's extended edition
- RPG company who made the Aftermath RPG, as recommended by Scott
You may have noticed the progressive turn in this show towards making an official forum. We do plan on doing that very soon, so keep your eyes open for that on our website.
Our next episode is actually already recorded, waiting on some editing tidbits. It's an interview with Colin Dwan of Fallen Earth, so look for that in the coming week!
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, April 3, 2009
Episode 6
In this 6th episode of Through the Aftermath, it's all about gaming as we discuss Fallout 3's newest DLC: The Pitt, as well as Shawn's impressions of the Game Developer's Conference last week in San Francisco.
Jonathan describes how much fun he's had with The Pitt, and covers some of the concerns and issues that Xbox 360 players had with the new content when it first launched last week.
Shawn talks about the three post-apoc games he saw demos of and interviewed for at GDC: Fallen Earth, Huxley and Earthrise. Plus, at the end of the show, we play highlights from the Earthrise interview, featuring Masthead Studiosâ CEO Atanas Atanasov. We thank Atanas for allowing us use of the audio for this show, as the interview was originally done by Shawn for Massively.com.
Want to know more about these interviews? Check out each of these articles: Fallen Earth, Huxley and Earthrise. Also, even though we don't mention it on the show, Global Agenda is shaping up to be a sci-fi game that teeters on post-apocalyptic. Definitely something to check out if you're into the more technological side of a rebuilt world.
Look for a complete email show coming next week to catch up with the emails weâve been receiving from you wonderful listeners!
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Theme music is The Fourth Tribe by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, March 13, 2009
Episode 5
This 5th episode of Through the Aftermath is light on the news, but heavy on the main topic: The Road by Cormac McCarthy. We also get another book review from our friendly post-apocalyptic librarian, and read a few emails.
Book review:
"Field guide to the Apocalypse: Movie Survival Skills for the End of the World" by Meghann Marco (2005) 9780689878770
News:
- Will the next Mad Mad be animated? http://www.comingsoon.net/
- Denzel Washington in Book of Eli: http://scifiwire.com/2009/02/
- I Am Alive is postponed until next year, while the publisher takes over as developer: http://kotaku.com/5165361/i-
- Mad Max director thinks gaming is the future of storytelling: http://kotaku.com/5165879/mad-
Main Topic: The Road
We give a basic synopsis of the book, give our impressions and talk a bit about the upcoming movie with Viggo Mortensen. We also speculate on what the apocalyptic event was in the book, since it's not really told exactly.
We then read a few emails from our wonderful listeners, and address some comments from our VirginWorlds page.
Next episode may be a bit later than normal since Shawn will be at GDC all week, but hopefully you can look for some great audio from GDC interviews in the coming show!
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Segue music is "Hit the Road Jack" by Ray Charles, "On the Road Again" by Willie Nelson and "End of the Road" by Boys II Men. Used with absolutely no permission.
Theme music is 'The Fourth Tribe' by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Saturday, February 28, 2009
Episode 4
On this fourth episode of Through the Aftermath, the theme is the 1974 classic A Boy and His Dog. We also tackle a bit of news and email from you wonderful listeners.
News:
Main Topic: A Boy and His Dog
We read a bit of listener email, and talk more in-depth about what we view as post-apocalyptic for the show. There's also a bit more discussion on Mad Max and some great recommendations from listeners on books and movies such as Dance of the Dead. Keep 'em coming! Also be sure to check out Doomorama's PA blog.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Theme music is 'The Fourth Tribe' by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Saturday, February 14, 2009
Episode 3
On this third episode of Through the Aftermath, there is no theme, but we have tons of news and we answer a few emails from listeners.
News:
- Movie based on the Afterburn comics coming soon
- Fallen Earth News!
--- Dev chat on February 12th. The episode was recorded during the dev chat, but listeners can now read the exciting transcript
--- Also, Fallen Earth has entered closed beta.
--- Interview with Lead Design Lee Hammock tells of all the game's features as we know them so far.
- Fallout 3 News!
--- Lesson Learned from Bethesda: No more level caps in future Fallout games
--- Also, the next 2 expansions will be delayed
- Terminator Salvation News!
--- A look at the Terminator Salvation video game trailer
--- Also some concept art from the movie
--- We also talk briefly about what we think of the Terminator Salvation movie coming out, and joke a bit about that Christian Bale outburst on the set
- The rumor about Hellgate: London staying open and going F2P was actually false
- Left 4 Dead's first expansion coming soon
- Great article on the types of Dystopia in games
John return this episode with his Outta Print segment, talking this time about the Freak Angels.
We read a few emails from listeners, and answer some questions on the spoiler issue, the complicated Xbox/Windows Live point system involved with the Fallout 3 DLC and more!
Congrats to krat3r for winning the Mad Max DVD from last week's Twitter contest. Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter.
Segue music is "Butcher Pete" by Roy Brown.
Theme music is "The Fourth Tribe" by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Saturday, January 31, 2009
Episode 2
On this second episode of Through the Aftermath, Shawn and Jonathan cover quite a bit as they're already breaking their "under 1 hour" rule. The main topic is Mad Max and the brand new Fallout 3 DLC.
News:
- Fallen Earth State of the Game
- I Am Alive to launch in March
- Earthrise on the year ahead
- Fallout 3's game-stopping endgame changing for all platforms except PS3
- Check out this hilarious apocalyptic comedy: The Remnants
- Hellgate: London going free to play and not closing down afterall
- New PA show coming to NBC, from one of the writers of Heroes
- Fallout 3 downloadable content released earlier this week
Main Topic: Mad Max:
Shawn and Jonathan go through the basic premise of the movie and how it affected them growing up. They mention their favorite scenes and some little-known facts from behind the scenes.
Great Mad Mad resource: http://www.madmaxmovies.com/
Fallout 3: Operation Anchorage Impressions:
S & J give some impressions on the new DLC for Fallout 3 and why you should spend the $10 on it. Shawn mentions a great review at GiantBomb.com that you all need to see.
Keep in touch with us via the Facebook page, email or on Twitter. We'll be holding a Twitter contest on Thursday, February 5th. Simply follow us on Twitter and watch our Twitter feed at exactly 3pm EST/8pm GMT on Feb 5th for a trivia question about Mad Max. The first person to correctly answer that question in their Twitter feed (e.g.: @aftermathshow the answer is RHUBARB!) will win a Special Edition Mad Max DVD from Amazon.com. Spread the word, get your friends in on this too!
No John this week, but he should be back for next show!
All movie audio clips are copyright Mad Max.
Theme music is "The Fourth Tribe" by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.
Friday, January 30, 2009
Episode 1
In this first episode of the Through the Aftermath podcast, your hosts Shawn and Jonathan introduce themselves to the post-apocalyptic community and discuss their intentions with the show. Some key points:
* Each show aims to be 45-60 minutes, and will be released every two weeks.
* The show's focus will be the post-apocalyptic setting as it pertains to Earth and its survivors in a dystopian society. This could include anything from nuclear holocaust to a virus outbreak to the zombie apocalypse and more.
* All media will eventually be discussed in this genre, yet the main focus will be on gaming.
* It is planned as both entertaining and educational, even going so far as to have historical information on the evolution of the apocalyptic scare and fun tips on surviving the collapse of society.
* John from Limited Edition will be contributing a regular segment entitled "Outta Print" regarding comics in the post-apocalyptic genre.
* Spoilers are inevitable, but there are plans to warn listeners with a "Duck and Cover" type jingle before the spoiler starts.
* This project will reach much further than a simple podcast. There are Fallout 3 mods and contests planned, plus an up-to-date Twitter account for the very latest news in the entire genre.
We hope you've enjoyed this first episode, and if you'd like to get in touch with the show, shoot an email to "show at throughtheaftermath.com". Check out our website at www.throughtheaftermath.com for more about us, the show and how to reach us on Twitter and Facebook.
Promo from The Signal podcast, entering their 5th season on January 27th.
Theme music is "The Fourth Tribe" by Michael Gordon Shapiro. Used with permission.